Another time share scam?
Recommendation: Beware! This resort and company exhibit all the features of a time share scam...
For reference and a compilation of typical time share, vacation club or vacation point system, the reader should look at http://www.crimes-of-persuasion.com/Crimes/InPerson/MajorPerson/time_shares.htm.
In general, we encourage prospective customers / invitees of time share presentations to search (it can be as simple as searching http://www.google.com) for time share, vacation club and vacation point systems scams and complaint. Search also explicitly for complaints or stories about the resort or company / program that invites you or is offered to you (in the present case, Davie Walley's resort and Quintus Resorts).
Details on David Waley's Resort can be found at http://www.davidwalleys.com/main.html.
Here are some highlights of our experience:
We were invited to go visit the David Waley's resort in exchange of a gift to pay for up to 3 nights hotel accommodations in the Lake Tahoe's region. The sole condition being to attend a no more than 90 minutes presentation on David Walley's resort.
We decided to take the opportunity to visit the Lake Tahoe and enjoy some snow.
The employees of David Walley's Resort booked us in a 5 Star hotel in Carson City. The room turned out to be a low quality room is a doubtful motel adjacent to the hotel front (The Plaza Hotel), and far from a 5 Star Hotel ...
This should immediately warn potentially interested customers about the trust to put in David Walley's Resort employee commitments in terms of quality of the properties available to you.
We attended the individual presentation. It was initially well done by a salesman that spent roughly one hour slowly but friendly walk us through a presentation / discussion that included:
Understanding our concerns about such program (time shares scams, high community fees decided by managing company, hidden fees, hidden terms and constraints, impossibility to book or exchange time slot or property, impossibility to resell, bankruptcy scams, etc...).
Explaining that these were daemons of the past mostly around time shares and point systems.
Invoking involvement of Marriott and Hyatt as way to legitimate the system.
Claiming that they are rather a Vacation club, offering deeds on property (but not property to be reported as a real estate for tax purposes...) instead of a point system that can be wiped out if rescinded by the company or if the company is bankrupted or time shares that present all the risks mentioned above and many more.
Understanding our vacation patterns and dreams
Providing an explanation of the economical value proposition that essentially amounts at stating that with their system, money paid for vacations give us a deed on a property in 7 to 10 years + tax deductions, instead of being given to others (hotels etc...). The base argument is solid and essentially the same as to explain the value of buying a house instead of renting a house. The problem really is not that this is not a good proposal but rather that the company that setup these programs can not be trusted.
Presenting a big book of hotel resorts available for exchange with luxurious resorts.
Remember the 5 star hotel that turned out being a low quality motel...
Claiming that we are not limited to a particular week, can book up to 2 years in advance and that exchanging with another location is not conditioned on finding somebody to occupy our week at David Waley's Resort.
This is something that people should validate. Typically this one of the main problems of such programs.
It is doubtful as the presenter admitted not skiing and therefore having weeks in summer instead...
Promising to membership to a web program (they give user ID and password) that allow to book prestigious / luxurious apartment, house or resorts anywhere within the world, 30 days in advance for $190 a week...
If that was possible alone, it would be worth to participate. It would rapidly pay off for any business person traveling regularly (in US or Abroad)...
Promising special rates for staying on the David Waley's Resort other weeks:
Referring to the published prices for staying at the resort and quoting a prices between $80 and $130). Anybody who travels knows that the hotel published prices are irrelevant and way above the prices that can usually be obtained.
Promising possibility to use facilities or reserve for free rooms for business meeting, parties, etc...
The rest of the presentation was consistent with the practices described in http://www.crimes-of-persuasion.com/Crimes/InPerson/MajorPerson/time_shares.htm, including claims of owning 3 deeds him selves and having his parents owning some too.
This is rather doubtful considering the age of the presenter, probably in late 50s...
Throughout the presentation (starting 10 minutes after the show started):
We asked repeatedly for the bottom-line: cost, terms, exact contractual language and what is contractually offered in exchange (what is guaranteed, what may be offered and what would be available conditionally and at what conditions).
We never received a single straight answer
Prices where fuzzy, with two price options (~$11000 and ~20000): one for one week a year , one for one week every two year...
The salesman tried / hoped to confuse us stating that the advantages (e.g. access to spa, right to get a unit at discount price, ...) were in both cases once per year but the deed would be for one week every two years! Too bad, we really never intended to get scammed and spent our time simply waiting this to be over and trying to spot the scam...
Be aware of what you get. It is never explained to you. It's up to you to see the scam...
Per se this should be enough to tell you to run and give you a reason for doing so and still get your gift. Threaten to call the police if needed. We stayed for the fin as there were only 30 more minutes to go...
All answers included terms, nicknames, acronyms that are confusing:
Is it the unit of the benefits?
What are the benefits?
What is the 52nd week rule not rented (only 51 weeks are soled) to restore?
What are the terms of the maintenance fee and maintenance decided by the owner? Are these decided by owner or managing company?
Is the week fixed or one week every year when we want?
Is it a week per year or a week every two years?
Is it a real estate deed or still just a renamed time share?
Are there or are there no conditions to go to another resort:
When?
At what extra cost?
What are the conditions in terms of having your week occupied?
What is really available?
Terms, advantages, conditions, restrictions and costs for the special web program to book one week anywhere, less than 30 days in advance, for $199?
Are there other terms, restrictions, fees or obligations that we should be aware of?
What will be provided, what may be provided (and based on what conditions) and what requires extra fees?
We have toured the resort for roughly 20 minutes. Displayed units are nice.
If you are interested, make sure that what you see is what you get. In teh present cases the units on sales are still being built...
Our obligation completed (90 minutes :) ), we asked for material for our considerations.
We were told that this not the way that things are being done.
Consistent with the practices described in http://www.crimes-of-persuasion.com/Crimes/InPerson/MajorPerson/time_shares.htm, the salesman tried to explain that this required immediate decision.
We told him that the bottom-line was:
We are not going to give-in to any pressure nor make any decision on that day.
We do not trust people or company using such practices.
If he believes that he has made a great case and this is such a great deal, he will provide us with detailed material and offer for us to consider and get back to them.
The sales person told us that now we had broken his trust and that the deal was off:
Thank you! We were worried for a while.
He gave us our gift and reminded us to remember that "we turned on him".
For a second we thought of making a scene on that comment and complain.
Instead we enjoyed our weekend and decided to warn prospective interested customers and potential victims.
As we did not pursue further, we can't be sure of the degree and nature of the scam, fraud and malpractice of David Waley's Resort of Quintus Resorts. In any case we have enough material here to be wary of them and to introduce legal complaint for breach of contract (hotel / motel) and deceptive sales practices. You will note how it fits and copy practices also described in http://www.crimes-of-persuasion.com/Crimes/InPerson/MajorPerson/time_shares.htm and numerous other web sites and publications (again search the web and you will find easily).
In our analysis, the fussiness of the described advantages and obligations, refusal to provide clear description of the actual contractual terms and demand for an immediate decision imply that:
Terms are different from what is described
We suspect a complex legal verbiage that hides conditional clauses, fees and restrictions that change MUST commitments into MAY commitments from the offering company while adding constraints and fees on the buyer.
We suspect in addition, a hope that upon signing and spending often several day on site, then time to travel back, they hope that consumer will not use the following 3 days to check the contract and rescind it if needed.
We recommend you to carefully avoid such programs unless if:
Like us you are used to negotiate and not impressed by pressure sales and can easily get out of them. Understand we are very good at it. Be sure that you know what you are doing if you accept to attend such a program.
Do not sign anything without reviewing the contract for several days, preferably check with an Attorney that what you believe are the terms are indeed the terms.
While the value proposition is certainly convincing, I would not participate unless if you know somebody that you trust who participates in the same program and can confirm the seriousness and value proposition.
So, please be careful!
In any case, beware of David Waley's Resort and Quintus Resorts. At the minimum they perform deceptive sales and do not hesitate to breach base contract while trying to get your business. What is it once they have you contractually locked? Consider very carefully that David Waley's Resort and Quintus Resorts may be scam artists. You are most probably better off avoiding doing business or getting involved in any way with them.
Note:
This information is posted in order to warn consumers of the business practices of David Waley's Resort and Quintus Resorts. It does not serve any other purpose.
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